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	<title>Comments on: Deception + fear + humiliation != education</title>
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		<title>By: Dan C</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2010/05/27/aclu-facebook-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-111361</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:21:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/?p=2621#comment-111361</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll admit I&#039;m on the fence about this one . . . the comparisons of the &#039;brain on drugs&#039; commercials to what this police officer did are both similar and yet worlds apart. I agree Crystal Meth is very different than Marijuana but a stranger is still a stranger whether is be a police officer, the local perv, or even a parent making a fake account to spy on their kids. While I completely disagree with the way the police officer handled this situation, the lesson is that you should be careful of what information you not only put out there yourself but what your friends put out there for you. It goes beyond just what you do when you sit at the computer but who you let take a picture of you with a digital camera (thank god I grew up in the days of film). I would be completely fine with this officers approach and method if he/she would have done the responsible action of blurring out the students faces. Trust me the ones in the photo would have known what the cop saw but had the ability to remain anonymous with their peers and teachers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll admit I&#8217;m on the fence about this one . . . the comparisons of the &#8216;brain on drugs&#8217; commercials to what this police officer did are both similar and yet worlds apart. I agree Crystal Meth is very different than Marijuana but a stranger is still a stranger whether is be a police officer, the local perv, or even a parent making a fake account to spy on their kids. While I completely disagree with the way the police officer handled this situation, the lesson is that you should be careful of what information you not only put out there yourself but what your friends put out there for you. It goes beyond just what you do when you sit at the computer but who you let take a picture of you with a digital camera (thank god I grew up in the days of film). I would be completely fine with this officers approach and method if he/she would have done the responsible action of blurring out the students faces. Trust me the ones in the photo would have known what the cop saw but had the ability to remain anonymous with their peers and teachers.</p>
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		<title>By: Larry Lyon</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2010/05/27/aclu-facebook-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-108281</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry Lyon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jun 2010 18:19:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/?p=2621#comment-108281</guid>
		<description>The easy response to this situation is to delve into a discussion of &quot;memes&quot; and how ideas such as religion perpetuate their own existence by claiming at the same time that they offer the only road to salvation and that opposing ideas will lead to damnation.

The internet and applications such as social networking sites like &quot;Facebook&quot; provide the means for creation of alternative societies.  These pose a risk to more traditional societies based on hierarchical orders such as family, government and church and attacks are to be expected.

The simpler (and I think more likely) answer is that people in positions of authority, including teachers or police simply don&#039;t think that societal and legal rules and norms which are supposed to apply to everyone, apply to them.  Therefore, its fine to misrepresent your identity, invade peoples privacy and pass along your opinions whether based on fact or fancy.  

After all, &quot;the ends justify the means.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The easy response to this situation is to delve into a discussion of &#8220;memes&#8221; and how ideas such as religion perpetuate their own existence by claiming at the same time that they offer the only road to salvation and that opposing ideas will lead to damnation.</p>
<p>The internet and applications such as social networking sites like &#8220;Facebook&#8221; provide the means for creation of alternative societies.  These pose a risk to more traditional societies based on hierarchical orders such as family, government and church and attacks are to be expected.</p>
<p>The simpler (and I think more likely) answer is that people in positions of authority, including teachers or police simply don&#8217;t think that societal and legal rules and norms which are supposed to apply to everyone, apply to them.  Therefore, its fine to misrepresent your identity, invade peoples privacy and pass along your opinions whether based on fact or fancy.  </p>
<p>After all, &#8220;the ends justify the means.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Hilary</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2010/05/27/aclu-facebook-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-107966</link>
		<dc:creator>Hilary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jun 2010 14:15:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/?p=2621#comment-107966</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s an interesting tactic. It is amazing what people do and don&#039;t know about Facebook and settings. I ran a similar exercise (without having to resort to subterfuge as it was all open access) for youth workers. However instead of using the pictures and being public with them I ran a &quot;Someone in this room is....&quot; and then a list of things like who they might be friends with, what groups they&#039;re in, fan pages etc. It got the message across very clearly and many have now lockdown their personal profiles. In all these areas it&#039;s important that there is education (the how to) as well as the why. It&#039;s all very well scaremongering but the most important part is the discussion and understanding rather than the fear. The skills to do something different. 

In this case I think that the Police Officer could well have gotten the information required without pretending to be someone else. I also think that it is not acceptable to publicly humiliate a young person about what is or isn&#039;t on their SNS profile especially in front of peers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s an interesting tactic. It is amazing what people do and don&#8217;t know about Facebook and settings. I ran a similar exercise (without having to resort to subterfuge as it was all open access) for youth workers. However instead of using the pictures and being public with them I ran a &#8220;Someone in this room is&#8230;.&#8221; and then a list of things like who they might be friends with, what groups they&#8217;re in, fan pages etc. It got the message across very clearly and many have now lockdown their personal profiles. In all these areas it&#8217;s important that there is education (the how to) as well as the why. It&#8217;s all very well scaremongering but the most important part is the discussion and understanding rather than the fear. The skills to do something different. </p>
<p>In this case I think that the Police Officer could well have gotten the information required without pretending to be someone else. I also think that it is not acceptable to publicly humiliate a young person about what is or isn&#8217;t on their SNS profile especially in front of peers.</p>
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		<title>By: Margaret Weigel</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2010/05/27/aclu-facebook-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-102971</link>
		<dc:creator>Margaret Weigel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jun 2010 15:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/?p=2621#comment-102971</guid>
		<description>I help advise my city&#039;s public schools on technology and the internet, and here&#039;s a little real-life story:  after a HS girl in another town hanged herself after unrelenting online harrassment, all the schools in the states were in a lather as to how to react.  They had no time to actually investigate how best to address things, and no funds to support pretty much anything. (This is a &#039;middle class&#039; district where the toner cartridges ran out of ink in December, leaving the teachers to buy/hoard their own cuz there was no $$). 

So they grab a local cop to come in and give his talk.  Sad, (ineffective) but true.  At least the guy in the example knew how to use Facebook! : /

In a larger sense, it seems like the larger issue is a disconnect between notions of privacy.  Do I care if someone knows I like the show &quot;So You Think You Can Dance?&quot; Not a whit. We internet educator folks often mention how information online is often false or misleading; could it be that kids immersed in this environment value transparency and authenticity over more suspect communications?  Let it all hang out!! This is who I am, no kidding!! That others will often be less than accepting of others&#039; transgressions suggests that we&#039;re not quite there yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I help advise my city&#8217;s public schools on technology and the internet, and here&#8217;s a little real-life story:  after a HS girl in another town hanged herself after unrelenting online harrassment, all the schools in the states were in a lather as to how to react.  They had no time to actually investigate how best to address things, and no funds to support pretty much anything. (This is a &#8216;middle class&#8217; district where the toner cartridges ran out of ink in December, leaving the teachers to buy/hoard their own cuz there was no $$). </p>
<p>So they grab a local cop to come in and give his talk.  Sad, (ineffective) but true.  At least the guy in the example knew how to use Facebook! : /</p>
<p>In a larger sense, it seems like the larger issue is a disconnect between notions of privacy.  Do I care if someone knows I like the show &#8220;So You Think You Can Dance?&#8221; Not a whit. We internet educator folks often mention how information online is often false or misleading; could it be that kids immersed in this environment value transparency and authenticity over more suspect communications?  Let it all hang out!! This is who I am, no kidding!! That others will often be less than accepting of others&#8217; transgressions suggests that we&#8217;re not quite there yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Shane</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2010/05/27/aclu-facebook-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-100086</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jun 2010 04:03:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/?p=2621#comment-100086</guid>
		<description>Nobody at that presentation will walk away uncertain about the ramifications of sharing info online, which seems like a pretty effective lesson, and ones the touchy feely methods advocated on this blog have utterly failed to accomplish.  Since half the people in the universe are creating fake profiles, getting outraged that a cop did it to prove a point strikes me as naiive to the point of absurdity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody at that presentation will walk away uncertain about the ramifications of sharing info online, which seems like a pretty effective lesson, and ones the touchy feely methods advocated on this blog have utterly failed to accomplish.  Since half the people in the universe are creating fake profiles, getting outraged that a cop did it to prove a point strikes me as naiive to the point of absurdity.</p>
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		<title>By: Barb Woods</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2010/05/27/aclu-facebook-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-99381</link>
		<dc:creator>Barb Woods</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jun 2010 12:35:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/?p=2621#comment-99381</guid>
		<description>It would be better if a school challenged its students to develop a presentation/guide on proper online behavior.  Class time could be used  to have students research the issues and develop their own ideas about the risks and rewards of social media.  The instructor would just guide their research and recommendations.  The results could be shared at a school wide function, with the students presenting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be better if a school challenged its students to develop a presentation/guide on proper online behavior.  Class time could be used  to have students research the issues and develop their own ideas about the risks and rewards of social media.  The instructor would just guide their research and recommendations.  The results could be shared at a school wide function, with the students presenting.</p>
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		<title>By: ta7rir</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2010/05/27/aclu-facebook-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-97416</link>
		<dc:creator>ta7rir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jun 2010 15:15:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/?p=2621#comment-97416</guid>
		<description>I was recently speaking to a community worker who I met while facilitating a sexual health workshop (on immigrant and refugee youth sexual health). The worker described that when she worked with youth clients at her centre, she would show them graphic images of STI&#039;s to &quot;educate&quot; them about the issue. 

The problem with fear-based educational strategies, including the one you mentioned above, is that it doesn&#039;t actually give people the tools to deal with the issues when they are in a compromising situation. Instead of remembering how to use a condom/dental dam, or be aware of your online privacy settings, you remember that horrible picture of crabs, or how much it sucked that one of their friends got their picture held up to an entire assembly. It&#039;s incredibly frustrating to hear that educators think this is effective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was recently speaking to a community worker who I met while facilitating a sexual health workshop (on immigrant and refugee youth sexual health). The worker described that when she worked with youth clients at her centre, she would show them graphic images of STI&#8217;s to &#8220;educate&#8221; them about the issue. </p>
<p>The problem with fear-based educational strategies, including the one you mentioned above, is that it doesn&#8217;t actually give people the tools to deal with the issues when they are in a compromising situation. Instead of remembering how to use a condom/dental dam, or be aware of your online privacy settings, you remember that horrible picture of crabs, or how much it sucked that one of their friends got their picture held up to an entire assembly. It&#8217;s incredibly frustrating to hear that educators think this is effective.</p>
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		<title>By: Student</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2010/05/27/aclu-facebook-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-89131</link>
		<dc:creator>Student</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 May 2010 13:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/?p=2621#comment-89131</guid>
		<description>The girl seems to have lost her claim when she allowed herself to photographed holding a beer.  This is now someone else&#039;s property, and when they paste it on Facebook, it becomes Facebook&#039;s property.  Perhaps her complaint should be against the other student.  As for the police officer, violating Facebook&#039;s TOS comes with no real consequence, save maybe being kicked off facebook.  But, to claim entrapment is outrageous.  She cannot say she was not predisposed when she willingly drank the beer at least days before the assembly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The girl seems to have lost her claim when she allowed herself to photographed holding a beer.  This is now someone else&#8217;s property, and when they paste it on Facebook, it becomes Facebook&#8217;s property.  Perhaps her complaint should be against the other student.  As for the police officer, violating Facebook&#8217;s TOS comes with no real consequence, save maybe being kicked off facebook.  But, to claim entrapment is outrageous.  She cannot say she was not predisposed when she willingly drank the beer at least days before the assembly.</p>
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		<title>By: AirShowFan</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2010/05/27/aclu-facebook-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-85696</link>
		<dc:creator>AirShowFan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 May 2010 21:17:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/?p=2621#comment-85696</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s very important to teach young people just how visible they can be if they aren&#039;t mindful of who has access to information about them. (This is to help them avoid awkward situations with friends and family; I&#039;m not talking about rapists or kidnappers or anything like that). Danah has talked about helping a young girl realize that Facebook content she&#039;d never show to her mother is visible to her mother because the girl set it to &quot;Friends of friends&quot; and her mother is in that category. It&#039;s evident that a lot of kids are only learning about this kind of thing by making mistakes. Now, learning from one&#039;s mistakes is ok, but isn&#039;t part of the point of education to make learning a little more efficient and safer? Isn&#039;t it worth it trying to show kids, if nothing else, that most social networks&#039; default privacy settings are crap and that you shouldn&#039;t &quot;friend&quot; every acquaintance into one big group who can see everything that you post (or that is posted about you)?

I made some social faux-pas in middle school and high school (before social networking) and in college. It was those experiences (and others) that allowed me to immediately know, the moment I started using these networks, that I needed to manage who sees what, and that I needed to tweak the privacy settings. If these networks are being used by kids too young to have made such faux-pas or too stupid to learn from them (as is shown by these accounts of kids using very lax and &quot;open&quot; privacy settings/practices), then education or parenting or something should probably step in and say &quot;Do you realize that anyone can see this? People DO see this. Do you realize what the consequences could be?&quot;.

Creating a fake profile, and then publicly showing content posted by people who were stupid enough to friend the fake profile (or to have that content publicly visible anyways), doesn&#039;t sound all that terrible to me. I mean, these people are asking for it. Better it be done by a police officer in a school than by someone more malicious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s very important to teach young people just how visible they can be if they aren&#8217;t mindful of who has access to information about them. (This is to help them avoid awkward situations with friends and family; I&#8217;m not talking about rapists or kidnappers or anything like that). Danah has talked about helping a young girl realize that Facebook content she&#8217;d never show to her mother is visible to her mother because the girl set it to &#8220;Friends of friends&#8221; and her mother is in that category. It&#8217;s evident that a lot of kids are only learning about this kind of thing by making mistakes. Now, learning from one&#8217;s mistakes is ok, but isn&#8217;t part of the point of education to make learning a little more efficient and safer? Isn&#8217;t it worth it trying to show kids, if nothing else, that most social networks&#8217; default privacy settings are crap and that you shouldn&#8217;t &#8220;friend&#8221; every acquaintance into one big group who can see everything that you post (or that is posted about you)?</p>
<p>I made some social faux-pas in middle school and high school (before social networking) and in college. It was those experiences (and others) that allowed me to immediately know, the moment I started using these networks, that I needed to manage who sees what, and that I needed to tweak the privacy settings. If these networks are being used by kids too young to have made such faux-pas or too stupid to learn from them (as is shown by these accounts of kids using very lax and &#8220;open&#8221; privacy settings/practices), then education or parenting or something should probably step in and say &#8220;Do you realize that anyone can see this? People DO see this. Do you realize what the consequences could be?&#8221;.</p>
<p>Creating a fake profile, and then publicly showing content posted by people who were stupid enough to friend the fake profile (or to have that content publicly visible anyways), doesn&#8217;t sound all that terrible to me. I mean, these people are asking for it. Better it be done by a police officer in a school than by someone more malicious.</p>
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		<title>By: Andromeda</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2010/05/27/aclu-facebook-case.html/comment-page-1#comment-83961</link>
		<dc:creator>Andromeda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 May 2010 23:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/?p=2621#comment-83961</guid>
		<description>I had a student once, back when I was teaching middle school, who said something rude about me in a Facebook community I happened to look at (one pertaining to the subject I was teaching him....)  I took him aside, privately, and explained that, you know, I can see that, etc., and he was terribly embarrassed and apologetic and, when I glanced at his profile later, I saw it was a lot more locked-down, and the publicly visible content was not stuff that was going to get him into trouble with anyone (which hadn&#039;t been true previously, and wasn&#039;t necessarily true of my other students -- who knew, btw, that the faculty were increasingly on FB, and were very interested in discussing who was &amp; wasn&#039;t).

So there were definitely privacy conversations that needed to happen with that population, but -- *gasp* -- those can be actual conversations.  But I suppose that would entail, you know, &lt;I&gt;engaging&lt;/I&gt; and &lt;I&gt;forming relationships&lt;/I&gt; and &lt;I&gt;having trust&lt;/I&gt; and all that is terribly time-consuming.  &quot;This is your brain on Facebook&quot; is so much simpler, huh. (&lt;--dripping sarcasm)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a student once, back when I was teaching middle school, who said something rude about me in a Facebook community I happened to look at (one pertaining to the subject I was teaching him&#8230;.)  I took him aside, privately, and explained that, you know, I can see that, etc., and he was terribly embarrassed and apologetic and, when I glanced at his profile later, I saw it was a lot more locked-down, and the publicly visible content was not stuff that was going to get him into trouble with anyone (which hadn&#8217;t been true previously, and wasn&#8217;t necessarily true of my other students &#8212; who knew, btw, that the faculty were increasingly on FB, and were very interested in discussing who was &amp; wasn&#8217;t).</p>
<p>So there were definitely privacy conversations that needed to happen with that population, but &#8212; *gasp* &#8212; those can be actual conversations.  But I suppose that would entail, you know, <i>engaging</i> and <i>forming relationships</i> and <i>having trust</i> and all that is terribly time-consuming.  &#8220;This is your brain on Facebook&#8221; is so much simpler, huh. (&lt;&#8211;dripping sarcasm)</p>
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