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	<title>Comments on: musing about social networks and g/local cultures</title>
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	<description>making connections where none previously existed</description>
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		<title>By: Stevo</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html/comment-page-1#comment-17924</link>
		<dc:creator>Stevo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 07:57:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html#comment-17924</guid>
		<description>This is great! Two thoughts came to mind immediately.


1. Some people value local business not for the network, but for the cool stuff you get when you go there. There&#039;s more diversity and I hesitate to say quirk but maybe style in many local businesses. The local market, day spa, auto mechanic and deli can taylor themselves to their preferred customer communities - not just in product mix (like say helmart) but also in terms of presentation/merchandizing and customer service.


2. Low affinity customer communities are good for local businesses. If the people who shop there don&#039;t know each other from elsewhere, but share similar styles and tastes, they&#039;re going to want to come back for more. Also, they&#039;re going to come to the store based on what it offers - call it the value in the venue, maybe - rather than on who they&#039;re going to meet there. And they&#039;re going to be responsive to recommendations from people who credibly share their values (say, people who love rockabilly and the derby) more than from people who they share strong affinity with (say, a mom and her son, or a teacher and his students, or soccer teammates).


Just thoughts. But I think this is why urban areas maybe do better with local business (that is, in keeping them around) - the costs of finding and bringing together low affinity/high value people who share a common sense of style are lower. So cities sponsor group-forming networks (see Reed&#039;s law) easier than do new suburbia OR old suburbia.


Full disclosure: I grew up in old suburbia and the city both (Cambridge and Boston). My parents are both from old suburbia. And we all love local businesses.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is great! Two thoughts came to mind immediately.</p>
<p>1. Some people value local business not for the network, but for the cool stuff you get when you go there. There&#8217;s more diversity and I hesitate to say quirk but maybe style in many local businesses. The local market, day spa, auto mechanic and deli can taylor themselves to their preferred customer communities &#8211; not just in product mix (like say helmart) but also in terms of presentation/merchandizing and customer service.</p>
<p>2. Low affinity customer communities are good for local businesses. If the people who shop there don&#8217;t know each other from elsewhere, but share similar styles and tastes, they&#8217;re going to want to come back for more. Also, they&#8217;re going to come to the store based on what it offers &#8211; call it the value in the venue, maybe &#8211; rather than on who they&#8217;re going to meet there. And they&#8217;re going to be responsive to recommendations from people who credibly share their values (say, people who love rockabilly and the derby) more than from people who they share strong affinity with (say, a mom and her son, or a teacher and his students, or soccer teammates).</p>
<p>Just thoughts. But I think this is why urban areas maybe do better with local business (that is, in keeping them around) &#8211; the costs of finding and bringing together low affinity/high value people who share a common sense of style are lower. So cities sponsor group-forming networks (see Reed&#8217;s law) easier than do new suburbia OR old suburbia.</p>
<p>Full disclosure: I grew up in old suburbia and the city both (Cambridge and Boston). My parents are both from old suburbia. And we all love local businesses.</p>
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		<title>By: Emma</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html/comment-page-1#comment-17923</link>
		<dc:creator>Emma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 03:17:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html#comment-17923</guid>
		<description>Dan suggested: &lt;i&gt;e *other* possibility is that adults in suburbia connect with others primarily via phone, internet or car. Very few people walk anywhere anymore. So if the next &quot;node&quot; in our physical-world network is a car ride away, it is much easier to make friends at the soccer field or the church -- one car leap -- than in the house next door. In this sense, we suburbanites are connecting to others who are close by in our network. It&#039;s just that the lines within our networks skip the nuanced, below-the-radar particles of neighbors next door.&lt;/i&gt;
I think the movement thing could be part of this ... if you go back 30 or 40 years, people got to know their neighbours much better, didn&#039;t move miles away every few years etc.
However, from reading, I get the impression that not everyone liked it ... you couldn&#039;t have a secret liaison with someone, cos everyone would know...


In some ways, are we bringing back that intimacy; just online rather than off line; there&#039;s just a generation or two in the middle who&#039;re too young for the &quot;old ways&quot; &amp; consider themselves too old for the &quot;new ways&quot;.


To return to Dan&#039;s point, as petrol prices go up, interest in shopping locally etc., returns, I wonder if more and more people will start to walk  (or bike!) to their local shops, rather than driving to a larger store, and thus get to know local shop holders.




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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan suggested: <i>e *other* possibility is that adults in suburbia connect with others primarily via phone, internet or car. Very few people walk anywhere anymore. So if the next &#8220;node&#8221; in our physical-world network is a car ride away, it is much easier to make friends at the soccer field or the church &#8212; one car leap &#8212; than in the house next door. In this sense, we suburbanites are connecting to others who are close by in our network. It&#8217;s just that the lines within our networks skip the nuanced, below-the-radar particles of neighbors next door.</i><br />
I think the movement thing could be part of this &#8230; if you go back 30 or 40 years, people got to know their neighbours much better, didn&#8217;t move miles away every few years etc.<br />
However, from reading, I get the impression that not everyone liked it &#8230; you couldn&#8217;t have a secret liaison with someone, cos everyone would know&#8230;</p>
<p>In some ways, are we bringing back that intimacy; just online rather than off line; there&#8217;s just a generation or two in the middle who&#8217;re too young for the &#8220;old ways&#8221; &#038; consider themselves too old for the &#8220;new ways&#8221;.</p>
<p>To return to Dan&#8217;s point, as petrol prices go up, interest in shopping locally etc., returns, I wonder if more and more people will start to walk  (or bike!) to their local shops, rather than driving to a larger store, and thus get to know local shop holders.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html/comment-page-1#comment-17922</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 00:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html#comment-17922</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s at least of passing interest that so many people commented identifying themselves as living in &quot;new&quot; or &quot;old&quot; suburbia. But nobody seems to want to admit to living in urbia (?)- that is in the city - not the burbs.


Just a thought,
-Steve


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s at least of passing interest that so many people commented identifying themselves as living in &#8220;new&#8221; or &#8220;old&#8221; suburbia. But nobody seems to want to admit to living in urbia (?)- that is in the city &#8211; not the burbs.</p>
<p>Just a thought,<br />
-Steve</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Dewhirst</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html/comment-page-1#comment-17921</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Dewhirst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 21:09:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html#comment-17921</guid>
		<description>I believe it is about charm and not supporting your neighbour.  If you could choose from shopping at a small butcher where the children of the owner work there or a meat distribution center at the end of a parking lot - where would you go?  Our prevailing perspective is that &quot;Strangers are Danger&quot; so the chorus to save the small business is as much about creating a more welcoming space than it is to help the unknown neighbour.  However cash value trumps social value in most cases so we see these big box stores.


I think online social networks thrive because we have weakened our physical space to being merely multi-lane roads and big box stores - places where nobody would ever care to pull up a chair and sip a latte.  We all want to live in the world of Jane Jacobs - however the economies of scale killed the dream.


I am grateful that you take some time out from your studies to muse - it is some of the most refreshing reading I get online.


Cheers - Eric
P.S. - @Rob H - I live in &quot;old suburbia&quot; as well and I agree it is a wonderful place to be - a bit like Hotel California - when you first move in you plan to be here for a while before it cramps your style - and then you find yourself never wanting to move away.




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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe it is about charm and not supporting your neighbour.  If you could choose from shopping at a small butcher where the children of the owner work there or a meat distribution center at the end of a parking lot &#8211; where would you go?  Our prevailing perspective is that &#8220;Strangers are Danger&#8221; so the chorus to save the small business is as much about creating a more welcoming space than it is to help the unknown neighbour.  However cash value trumps social value in most cases so we see these big box stores.</p>
<p>I think online social networks thrive because we have weakened our physical space to being merely multi-lane roads and big box stores &#8211; places where nobody would ever care to pull up a chair and sip a latte.  We all want to live in the world of Jane Jacobs &#8211; however the economies of scale killed the dream.</p>
<p>I am grateful that you take some time out from your studies to muse &#8211; it is some of the most refreshing reading I get online.</p>
<p>Cheers &#8211; Eric<br />
P.S. &#8211; @Rob H &#8211; I live in &#8220;old suburbia&#8221; as well and I agree it is a wonderful place to be &#8211; a bit like Hotel California &#8211; when you first move in you plan to be here for a while before it cramps your style &#8211; and then you find yourself never wanting to move away.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob H</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html/comment-page-1#comment-17920</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 18:39:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html#comment-17920</guid>
		<description>As usual, your insights are great.  I live in a wonderful &quot;old suburbia&quot; neighborhood and it&#039;s exactly like what you describe.  We love the community feeling and intermixing of adults.  We find that about 1/2 of the new arrivals don&#039;t want to &quot;play&quot; with our community and that&#039;s a shame because it dims our neighborhood network effect.


Concerning new suburbia - I&#039;ve seen that the overall communities don&#039;t bond, but there are very intense groups that form per cul-de-sac.  As you predicted, these groups are strictly bound by their roles as parents.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As usual, your insights are great.  I live in a wonderful &#8220;old suburbia&#8221; neighborhood and it&#8217;s exactly like what you describe.  We love the community feeling and intermixing of adults.  We find that about 1/2 of the new arrivals don&#8217;t want to &#8220;play&#8221; with our community and that&#8217;s a shame because it dims our neighborhood network effect.</p>
<p>Concerning new suburbia &#8211; I&#8217;ve seen that the overall communities don&#8217;t bond, but there are very intense groups that form per cul-de-sac.  As you predicted, these groups are strictly bound by their roles as parents.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dodds</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html/comment-page-1#comment-17919</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dodds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html#comment-17919</guid>
		<description>I wonder if old surburbia felt like new surburbia in the early days? I doubt it because much has changed both socially and architecturally since then, but it will be interesting to see if residents begin to feel a need for a local epicentre though, of course, there is a difference between wanting one and supporting it.  Here in the UK,  a big debate about the heart of small neighbourhoods has been enegendered by the proposed shutting down of numerous post offices that has followed from the reduction of the postal service subsidies some years ago. People are quick to complain that to shut down a local post office is to destroy the heart of a community, but the reality is that they are being shut down because those same people don&#039;t make them anywhere close to being financially viable, i.e. they&#039;re not prepared to subsidise their social worth.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if old surburbia felt like new surburbia in the early days? I doubt it because much has changed both socially and architecturally since then, but it will be interesting to see if residents begin to feel a need for a local epicentre though, of course, there is a difference between wanting one and supporting it.  Here in the UK,  a big debate about the heart of small neighbourhoods has been enegendered by the proposed shutting down of numerous post offices that has followed from the reduction of the postal service subsidies some years ago. People are quick to complain that to shut down a local post office is to destroy the heart of a community, but the reality is that they are being shut down because those same people don&#8217;t make them anywhere close to being financially viable, i.e. they&#8217;re not prepared to subsidise their social worth.</p>
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		<title>By: Joan Vinall-Cox</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html/comment-page-1#comment-17918</link>
		<dc:creator>Joan Vinall-Cox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:50:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html#comment-17918</guid>
		<description>I live in an old suburb where 4 houses on my block are for sale, and the community public school is slated to be closed so a new one can be opened in the &quot;new&quot; suburbs north of the highway. In my area there is a rapid turnover not just of house owners, but many houses are demolished and replaced with larger ones.


I can walk to stores, on an attractive main street, but the stores are also turning over rapidly, as one person has bought most of the buildings and charges very high rent. The kids in the coffee shops keep changing too.


I think even many of the &quot;old&quot; suburbs suffer from the malaise you describe, partially because of the workaholism you described in a previous post. As a long-time feminist, I hesitate to point this out, but the &quot;housewives&quot; were the glue that knit communities together, and outside of the temporary child-rearing communities you referred to, we just use our houses as maildrops, backdrops, and sleeping areas.


I could be biased, because I&#039;m not gregarious by nature, but I doubt that anyone on our block even says &quot;hi&quot; to everyone else on the block, let alone knows their name. Makes me think of the line from a seventies song &quot;Why doesn&#039;t anyone stay in the same place anymore?&quot;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I live in an old suburb where 4 houses on my block are for sale, and the community public school is slated to be closed so a new one can be opened in the &#8220;new&#8221; suburbs north of the highway. In my area there is a rapid turnover not just of house owners, but many houses are demolished and replaced with larger ones.</p>
<p>I can walk to stores, on an attractive main street, but the stores are also turning over rapidly, as one person has bought most of the buildings and charges very high rent. The kids in the coffee shops keep changing too.</p>
<p>I think even many of the &#8220;old&#8221; suburbs suffer from the malaise you describe, partially because of the workaholism you described in a previous post. As a long-time feminist, I hesitate to point this out, but the &#8220;housewives&#8221; were the glue that knit communities together, and outside of the temporary child-rearing communities you referred to, we just use our houses as maildrops, backdrops, and sleeping areas.</p>
<p>I could be biased, because I&#8217;m not gregarious by nature, but I doubt that anyone on our block even says &#8220;hi&#8221; to everyone else on the block, let alone knows their name. Makes me think of the line from a seventies song &#8220;Why doesn&#8217;t anyone stay in the same place anymore?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Tarah</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html/comment-page-1#comment-17917</link>
		<dc:creator>Tarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:58:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html#comment-17917</guid>
		<description>An eye opening musing....I grew up in Phoenix, AZ on the border of old and new suburbia, old suburbia in Phoenix has more and more new suburbia qualities as the Valley of the Sun expands beyond the valley...at a frightening pace. I have been in San Francisco for 4 years so far, and I love the community dynamic that I wish I had more of as a kid. Learn from the past to make a better future, right?




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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An eye opening musing&#8230;.I grew up in Phoenix, AZ on the border of old and new suburbia, old suburbia in Phoenix has more and more new suburbia qualities as the Valley of the Sun expands beyond the valley&#8230;at a frightening pace. I have been in San Francisco for 4 years so far, and I love the community dynamic that I wish I had more of as a kid. Learn from the past to make a better future, right?</p>
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		<title>By: Crawford</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html/comment-page-1#comment-17916</link>
		<dc:creator>Crawford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:19:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html#comment-17916</guid>
		<description>Martin Mull&#039;s book, &quot;History of White People in America&quot; was supposed to be comedic satire. You know how those things work out.


Speaking as a survey of one middle-ager who&#039;s lived in and out of suburbs, I  found one constant: It didn&#039;t really matter all that much. Workaholism meant no time for relationships outside of the office. Your  decription of &quot;busy&quot; suburbanites made me relive that horror as I got just a little sick in my mouth.


Consider this, though. The rise of multi-use retail/housing developments over the last 5-7 years seems to be a direct outgrowth of a yearning to recover those neighborhood connections later in life (empty nester, early retirement years).


So maybe we&#039;re destined to return to close-knit community. And to buy our adult diapers locally.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Martin Mull&#8217;s book, &#8220;History of White People in America&#8221; was supposed to be comedic satire. You know how those things work out.</p>
<p>Speaking as a survey of one middle-ager who&#8217;s lived in and out of suburbs, I  found one constant: It didn&#8217;t really matter all that much. Workaholism meant no time for relationships outside of the office. Your  decription of &#8220;busy&#8221; suburbanites made me relive that horror as I got just a little sick in my mouth.</p>
<p>Consider this, though. The rise of multi-use retail/housing developments over the last 5-7 years seems to be a direct outgrowth of a yearning to recover those neighborhood connections later in life (empty nester, early retirement years).</p>
<p>So maybe we&#8217;re destined to return to close-knit community. And to buy our adult diapers locally.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Kunz</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html/comment-page-1#comment-17915</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Kunz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2008/04/10/musing_about_so.html#comment-17915</guid>
		<description>Your observation about suburban solitude is accurate, yet I think there are two simple answers.


1. As living spaces become more crowded, humans tend to protect their privacy by *not* getting to know the neighbors encroaching on their yard. It&#039;s easier to maintain the illusion that we have control over our personal space if we ignore the 40something guy grilling on the deck next door. This is why people buy tall shrubs or put up fences, except we now fence others off in our minds.


I&#039;ve seen this dynamic in my own Connecticut community (and fall victim to it myself). In four years, I&#039;ve made many close friends in my town -- but all are a modest car ride away, and the neighbors next to me are people whom I speak with three times a year, usually in stumbling upon them. The neighbors are too close to be comfortable.


Lest urbanites find this amusing, think of how comfortable you are with striking up conversations with strangers on the subway. The woman sitting next to you could be a potential friend, but neither of you want to bridge that close privacy wall to find out. In fact, trying would be a breach of social etiquette.


2. The *other* possibility is that adults in suburbia connect with others primarily via phone, internet or car. Very few people walk anywhere anymore. So if the next &quot;node&quot; in our physical-world network is a car ride away, it is much easier to make friends at the soccer field or the church -- one car leap -- than in the house next door. In this sense, we suburbanites are connecting to others who are close by in our network. It&#039;s just that the lines within our networks skip the nuanced, below-the-radar particles of neighbors next door.


In the rulers of our lives, we either skip over people between the tick-marks, or prefer not to think that those tiny tick-marks exist. It&#039;s simply easier to connect with those at the end of a car ride, and to envision our home really isn&#039;t surrounded by thousands of other humans, breathing in the dark so close nearby.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your observation about suburban solitude is accurate, yet I think there are two simple answers.</p>
<p>1. As living spaces become more crowded, humans tend to protect their privacy by *not* getting to know the neighbors encroaching on their yard. It&#8217;s easier to maintain the illusion that we have control over our personal space if we ignore the 40something guy grilling on the deck next door. This is why people buy tall shrubs or put up fences, except we now fence others off in our minds.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen this dynamic in my own Connecticut community (and fall victim to it myself). In four years, I&#8217;ve made many close friends in my town &#8212; but all are a modest car ride away, and the neighbors next to me are people whom I speak with three times a year, usually in stumbling upon them. The neighbors are too close to be comfortable.</p>
<p>Lest urbanites find this amusing, think of how comfortable you are with striking up conversations with strangers on the subway. The woman sitting next to you could be a potential friend, but neither of you want to bridge that close privacy wall to find out. In fact, trying would be a breach of social etiquette.</p>
<p>2. The *other* possibility is that adults in suburbia connect with others primarily via phone, internet or car. Very few people walk anywhere anymore. So if the next &#8220;node&#8221; in our physical-world network is a car ride away, it is much easier to make friends at the soccer field or the church &#8212; one car leap &#8212; than in the house next door. In this sense, we suburbanites are connecting to others who are close by in our network. It&#8217;s just that the lines within our networks skip the nuanced, below-the-radar particles of neighbors next door.</p>
<p>In the rulers of our lives, we either skip over people between the tick-marks, or prefer not to think that those tiny tick-marks exist. It&#8217;s simply easier to connect with those at the end of a car ride, and to envision our home really isn&#8217;t surrounded by thousands of other humans, breathing in the dark so close nearby.</p>
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