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	<title>Comments on: Suzanne Briet: madame documentation and librarian extraordinaire</title>
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	<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/01/09/suzanne_briet_m.html</link>
	<description>making connections where none previously existed</description>
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		<title>By: Dennis Moser</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/01/09/suzanne_briet_m.html/comment-page-1#comment-17396</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis Moser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 17:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks so much for sharing all of this ... I have recently re-discovered Mdme. Briet as I am researching applications of documentation strategies in virtual realities. She is as applicable today (maybe more so!)as she was then in my class in archives where I, too, argued that the antelope was indeed a document.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks so much for sharing all of this &#8230; I have recently re-discovered Mdme. Briet as I am researching applications of documentation strategies in virtual realities. She is as applicable today (maybe more so!)as she was then in my class in archives where I, too, argued that the antelope was indeed a document.</p>
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		<title>By: kgs</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/01/09/suzanne_briet_m.html/comment-page-1#comment-17395</link>
		<dc:creator>kgs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2008 09:28:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2008/01/09/suzanne_briet_m.html#comment-17395</guid>
		<description>Wow, just catching up with this. I don&#039;t see her so much as like &quot;Google&quot; as with librarians exploring what we might call &quot;embed theory&quot; -- exactly like what she talked about, being where the user is. Librarian as service, rather than library as facility.


Beautiful post... sorry it took me almost three weeks to get to it! I&#039;ll have to think where this fits... she does deserve attention. Might make an interesting &quot;Arthur Curley Lecture&quot; at ALA.


Hugs


Karen S.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, just catching up with this. I don&#8217;t see her so much as like &#8220;Google&#8221; as with librarians exploring what we might call &#8220;embed theory&#8221; &#8212; exactly like what she talked about, being where the user is. Librarian as service, rather than library as facility.</p>
<p>Beautiful post&#8230; sorry it took me almost three weeks to get to it! I&#8217;ll have to think where this fits&#8230; she does deserve attention. Might make an interesting &#8220;Arthur Curley Lecture&#8221; at ALA.</p>
<p>Hugs</p>
<p>Karen S.</p>
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		<title>By: tilly</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/01/09/suzanne_briet_m.html/comment-page-1#comment-17394</link>
		<dc:creator>tilly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 03:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2008/01/09/suzanne_briet_m.html#comment-17394</guid>
		<description>Bonjour danah et Pamela ;)


Pamela thank you for spreading the word about Suzanne Briet, and danah thank you for this very late (for me) recognition of an Information Lady. In my post i explain that i got a degree in information science in 1973 at l&#039;INTD, the school that Suzanne Briet had founded... and even though, it&#039;s through your article, danah, that i first heard of her! From the biographies i read  by Ron Day and Michael Buckland, i have made up an image of mine of Suzanne Briet being another &quot;Simone de Beauvoir&quot;...


At the end of the post i also announce of the publication (in French) of &quot;La femme digitale&quot;, a book written by Isabelle Juppé, wife of Alain Juppé former French prime minister.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bonjour danah et Pamela <img src='http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Pamela thank you for spreading the word about Suzanne Briet, and danah thank you for this very late (for me) recognition of an Information Lady. In my post i explain that i got a degree in information science in 1973 at l&#8217;INTD, the school that Suzanne Briet had founded&#8230; and even though, it&#8217;s through your article, danah, that i first heard of her! From the biographies i read  by Ron Day and Michael Buckland, i have made up an image of mine of Suzanne Briet being another &#8220;Simone de Beauvoir&#8221;&#8230;</p>
<p>At the end of the post i also announce of the publication (in French) of &#8220;La femme digitale&#8221;, a book written by Isabelle Juppé, wife of Alain Juppé former French prime minister.</p>
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		<title>By: Pamela</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/01/09/suzanne_briet_m.html/comment-page-1#comment-17393</link>
		<dc:creator>Pamela</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2008 23:17:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2008/01/09/suzanne_briet_m.html#comment-17393</guid>
		<description>Hello Danah. I saw a link to this on Tilly&#039;s blog (Paris) and forwarded the link to a college library director and francophile friend. I look forward to learning more. (I&#039;m a friend of Claire&#039;s. I first heard of you and your work through her article &quot;Plus belle, ma vie en ligne,&quot; which I&#039;ll be translating into English in a few weeks.) Your comment on writing being key to fully participating in the social web sparked a lot of discussion among my friends and me. I founded a niche social network in October &#039;07.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Danah. I saw a link to this on Tilly&#8217;s blog (Paris) and forwarded the link to a college library director and francophile friend. I look forward to learning more. (I&#8217;m a friend of Claire&#8217;s. I first heard of you and your work through her article &#8220;Plus belle, ma vie en ligne,&#8221; which I&#8217;ll be translating into English in a few weeks.) Your comment on writing being key to fully participating in the social web sparked a lot of discussion among my friends and me. I founded a niche social network in October &#8217;07.</p>
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		<title>By: joe</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/01/09/suzanne_briet_m.html/comment-page-1#comment-17392</link>
		<dc:creator>joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2008/01/09/suzanne_briet_m.html#comment-17392</guid>
		<description>of course, there has always been an economy for information.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>of course, there has always been an economy for information.</p>
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		<title>By: Mario Alberich</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/01/09/suzanne_briet_m.html/comment-page-1#comment-17391</link>
		<dc:creator>Mario Alberich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2008/01/09/suzanne_briet_m.html#comment-17391</guid>
		<description>Danah,


I would like to translate to spanish this post, and posting it into my own blog &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sopadebits.com/,&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.sopadebits.com/,&lt;/a&gt; which is focused on the mix of technology, information science and maths.


Of course I will point to your blog with the whole of the attributions that you think are needed.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Danah,</p>
<p>I would like to translate to spanish this post, and posting it into my own blog <a href="http://www.sopadebits.com/," rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.sopadebits.com/?referer=');">http://www.sopadebits.com/,</a> which is focused on the mix of technology, information science and maths.</p>
<p>Of course I will point to your blog with the whole of the attributions that you think are needed.</p>
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		<title>By: Gardner Campbell</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/01/09/suzanne_briet_m.html/comment-page-1#comment-17390</link>
		<dc:creator>Gardner Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jan 2008 05:09:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2008/01/09/suzanne_briet_m.html#comment-17390</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the links to Buckland&#039;s article and the information on Briet--both very valuable.


I do have some concerns about your argument in this post, however. I&#039;m curious about why you feel non-Christians are marginalized in the history of information science. The list you provide at the end of the post seems arbitrary to me in that regard. I don&#039;t see Buckland&#039;s paper making the argument that Bush&#039;s ideas got more attention because he was Christian--indeed, do we know that Bush was Christian? Clearly Hitler and Hoover would have wanted to marginalize Goldberg because of his Jewishness, but it&#039;s still a stretch, in my view, to conclude that information scientists and info-science historians are more likely to promote Christians than non-Christians in their chronicles, as you imply.


Also, I think it&#039;s important to recognize that Bush&#039;s primary contribution was not so much the technology he imagined as the way in which he viewed information technology&#039;s power as a supplement or extension to human cognition. The word &quot;computer&quot; suggests that Bush&#039;s vision was not widespread--these machines were for rapid calculations, so how could that be a cognitive aid? Buckland&#039;s admirable essay moves too quickly, I think, to dismiss Bush&#039;s idea of associative trails. Buckland argues that these trails are too idiosyncratic to be of social value, and that they change so rapidly with additional learning that to specify them at any given point generates data that will quickly become irrelevant even for the individual. If that were true, however, Google wouldn&#039;t work. Also, Bush&#039;s vision at its most intense suggests that these associative trails could and should be shared, and by implication the sharing of associative trails would generate new associative trails. The Memex&#039;s social function is every bit as important as its private function, but Buckland does not treat that part of Bush&#039;s essay. Bush&#039;s vision is of a distributed cognition as well as an intimate supplement to memory. I would argue that more conventional information indexes are necessary but not sufficient, and have arisen at least in part because there was no technology powerful enough to generate distributed cognition in any way besides taxonomies--with the possible exception of natural language, the ultimate folksonomy.


By all means, the histories of information science should find and celebrate those pioneers (and those working today) who have been eclipsed, forgotten, or marginalized, for whatever reasons. But that is no reason to diminish Bush&#039;s contribution, or to suggest that his influence is largely the result of social injustice. While I think Buckland does not acknowledge or analyze the real conceptual power of Bush&#039;s famous essay, his conclusions do try to treat the matter fairly, at least to the extent of acknowledging that Bush&#039;s &quot;skillful writing&quot; aided its influence, and making plain that the record strongly suggests that Bush knew nothing of Goldberg&#039;s work. Your first paragraph implies that Bush stole the idea from Goldberg--an unfair and inaccurate implication not supported by either Buckland&#039;s article or the historical record as we now have it.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the links to Buckland&#8217;s article and the information on Briet&#8211;both very valuable.</p>
<p>I do have some concerns about your argument in this post, however. I&#8217;m curious about why you feel non-Christians are marginalized in the history of information science. The list you provide at the end of the post seems arbitrary to me in that regard. I don&#8217;t see Buckland&#8217;s paper making the argument that Bush&#8217;s ideas got more attention because he was Christian&#8211;indeed, do we know that Bush was Christian? Clearly Hitler and Hoover would have wanted to marginalize Goldberg because of his Jewishness, but it&#8217;s still a stretch, in my view, to conclude that information scientists and info-science historians are more likely to promote Christians than non-Christians in their chronicles, as you imply.</p>
<p>Also, I think it&#8217;s important to recognize that Bush&#8217;s primary contribution was not so much the technology he imagined as the way in which he viewed information technology&#8217;s power as a supplement or extension to human cognition. The word &#8220;computer&#8221; suggests that Bush&#8217;s vision was not widespread&#8211;these machines were for rapid calculations, so how could that be a cognitive aid? Buckland&#8217;s admirable essay moves too quickly, I think, to dismiss Bush&#8217;s idea of associative trails. Buckland argues that these trails are too idiosyncratic to be of social value, and that they change so rapidly with additional learning that to specify them at any given point generates data that will quickly become irrelevant even for the individual. If that were true, however, Google wouldn&#8217;t work. Also, Bush&#8217;s vision at its most intense suggests that these associative trails could and should be shared, and by implication the sharing of associative trails would generate new associative trails. The Memex&#8217;s social function is every bit as important as its private function, but Buckland does not treat that part of Bush&#8217;s essay. Bush&#8217;s vision is of a distributed cognition as well as an intimate supplement to memory. I would argue that more conventional information indexes are necessary but not sufficient, and have arisen at least in part because there was no technology powerful enough to generate distributed cognition in any way besides taxonomies&#8211;with the possible exception of natural language, the ultimate folksonomy.</p>
<p>By all means, the histories of information science should find and celebrate those pioneers (and those working today) who have been eclipsed, forgotten, or marginalized, for whatever reasons. But that is no reason to diminish Bush&#8217;s contribution, or to suggest that his influence is largely the result of social injustice. While I think Buckland does not acknowledge or analyze the real conceptual power of Bush&#8217;s famous essay, his conclusions do try to treat the matter fairly, at least to the extent of acknowledging that Bush&#8217;s &#8220;skillful writing&#8221; aided its influence, and making plain that the record strongly suggests that Bush knew nothing of Goldberg&#8217;s work. Your first paragraph implies that Bush stole the idea from Goldberg&#8211;an unfair and inaccurate implication not supported by either Buckland&#8217;s article or the historical record as we now have it.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/01/09/suzanne_briet_m.html/comment-page-1#comment-17389</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2008 18:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2008/01/09/suzanne_briet_m.html#comment-17389</guid>
		<description>Some few of us at UIUC know of her due, primarily, to Boyd Rayward.  Unfortunately, he just retired.  I heard Dr. Buckland speak about Emmanuel Goldberg at a conference in 2006, and have heard him a few other times, too.


As one of the weirder students who actually hang out with the LIS historians (a grand lot if there ever was one) I know of many of these people.  As to how to get others interested in them I have no idea.  LIS is basically ahistoric at this point.  I&#039;m not even going to try and say why, but it is so sad.


But I shall attempt to spread the word further by linking to this on the UIUC Progressive Librarians Guild page.


mark : no relation to Michael Buckland but I did tag him with an antelope sticker once [sorry, bad LIS joke].
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some few of us at UIUC know of her due, primarily, to Boyd Rayward.  Unfortunately, he just retired.  I heard Dr. Buckland speak about Emmanuel Goldberg at a conference in 2006, and have heard him a few other times, too.</p>
<p>As one of the weirder students who actually hang out with the LIS historians (a grand lot if there ever was one) I know of many of these people.  As to how to get others interested in them I have no idea.  LIS is basically ahistoric at this point.  I&#8217;m not even going to try and say why, but it is so sad.</p>
<p>But I shall attempt to spread the word further by linking to this on the UIUC Progressive Librarians Guild page.</p>
<p>mark : no relation to Michael Buckland but I did tag him with an antelope sticker once [sorry, bad LIS joke].</p>
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		<title>By: amy</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/01/09/suzanne_briet_m.html/comment-page-1#comment-17388</link>
		<dc:creator>amy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:48:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2008/01/09/suzanne_briet_m.html#comment-17388</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m going to send your posting around to the students at McGill - there are a number of feminist rabble rousers in the program, so we&#039;ll see what we can do about getting the word out.


Awesome post!


amy buckland
(no relation to Michael... but the name certainly helps in the LIS world!)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to send your posting around to the students at McGill &#8211; there are a number of feminist rabble rousers in the program, so we&#8217;ll see what we can do about getting the word out.</p>
<p>Awesome post!</p>
<p>amy buckland<br />
(no relation to Michael&#8230; but the name certainly helps in the LIS world!)</p>
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