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	<title>Comments on: number games and social software</title>
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	<description>making connections where none previously existed</description>
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		<title>By: Joao Neves</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html/comment-page-1#comment-13988</link>
		<dc:creator>Joao Neves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html#comment-13988</guid>
		<description>Check &quot;Permissive Marketing&quot;. The same behaviour is seen with any marketing points program, particularly frequent flyer miles. People going to the CEO level change hotels and traveling plans to optimize their miles.


For me it just seems an example of you get what you watch. In case studies on business PKI (Performance Key Indicators) you usually noticed that people will optimize what&#039;s measured. The same is seen with all kinds of reward systems (&quot;you get what you pay for&quot; - doesn&#039;t really matter if it&#039;s monetary or not).


As someone who uses &quot;points&quot; to generate behaviour from kids (in the scouts), I&#039;ve always been surprised on how well this works.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Check &#8220;Permissive Marketing&#8221;. The same behaviour is seen with any marketing points program, particularly frequent flyer miles. People going to the CEO level change hotels and traveling plans to optimize their miles.</p>
<p>For me it just seems an example of you get what you watch. In case studies on business PKI (Performance Key Indicators) you usually noticed that people will optimize what&#8217;s measured. The same is seen with all kinds of reward systems (&#8220;you get what you pay for&#8221; &#8211; doesn&#8217;t really matter if it&#8217;s monetary or not).</p>
<p>As someone who uses &#8220;points&#8221; to generate behaviour from kids (in the scouts), I&#8217;ve always been surprised on how well this works.</p>
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		<title>By: randomtruth</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html/comment-page-1#comment-13987</link>
		<dc:creator>randomtruth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 00:10:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html#comment-13987</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t ya think it&#039;s just raw competitiveness? We&#039;re genetically wired to compete, and numbers are an easy vocabulary for measuring ourselves against our past performances and each other.


I think this competitive drive is one of the reasons why people constantly strive to develop new games, sports, tests, etc. - to create new opportunities to become the best or first at something.


You even see it in blogging with people who get off on being the first to post a comment! :)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t ya think it&#8217;s just raw competitiveness? We&#8217;re genetically wired to compete, and numbers are an easy vocabulary for measuring ourselves against our past performances and each other.</p>
<p>I think this competitive drive is one of the reasons why people constantly strive to develop new games, sports, tests, etc. &#8211; to create new opportunities to become the best or first at something.</p>
<p>You even see it in blogging with people who get off on being the first to post a comment! <img src='http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: mish</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html/comment-page-1#comment-13986</link>
		<dc:creator>mish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 22:57:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html#comment-13986</guid>
		<description>You have great ideas but i am sticking with my first thought.  Just yesterday my husband and i discovered that you can buy an over ride kit for a Prius that lets you (or hopefully passenger) use the navigation while driving - and another one that turn the car into &quot;stealth mode&quot; meaning 100% battery as long as it is going under 34 then it switches to normal.  I does not hurt the car because it can do this anyway in Europe - they just dont care to activate that nice energy saving little feature for us americans.  Am not schilling for anything - dont know the site name - just google prius navivation override kits.  but spell it right :)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have great ideas but i am sticking with my first thought.  Just yesterday my husband and i discovered that you can buy an over ride kit for a Prius that lets you (or hopefully passenger) use the navigation while driving &#8211; and another one that turn the car into &#8220;stealth mode&#8221; meaning 100% battery as long as it is going under 34 then it switches to normal.  I does not hurt the car because it can do this anyway in Europe &#8211; they just dont care to activate that nice energy saving little feature for us americans.  Am not schilling for anything &#8211; dont know the site name &#8211; just google prius navivation override kits.  but spell it right <img src='http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Allen</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html/comment-page-1#comment-13985</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:21:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html#comment-13985</guid>
		<description>(copied from less active Many-to-Many comments -- the problem with cross-posting ;-)


The online game industry knows a lot about this -- they call people with a significant amount of this behavior an &quot;Achiever&quot;.


The theory, originated by Richard Bartle 16+ years ago, is that all players of online games fall into four types: Achievers, Explorers, Socializers, and Killers.


There has been a lot of good academic work on this topic in recent years, though like a lot of good ideas has been overly popularlized and thus simplified too much.


How it applies to your thoughts is that a large percentage of the population (some say 50%+) have as their primary motivation to sustain a feeling of achievement. It can be lifting weights, doing the New York Sunday crossword puzzle, and of course, gaining experience and levels in an online game.


Not the entire population has this as their primary motivation, but when you add it to people who have it as a secondary motivation it is such a large population that the online games primarily cater to this Bartle type. In recent years as game designers we&#039;ve been perfecting the our appeal to this type of player -- knowing how long to wait before giving feedback that an achievement is in progress, how often someone needs a break so they don&#039;t burn out, etc. A lot of it feels like Pavlovian research.


Thus more recently designed games like Worlds of Warcraft have learned from previous generations of game design to make an almost perfect game for the achiever dominant Bartle type. It isn&#039;t just marketing or better graphics -- they&#039;ve really learned how to addict people to the feeling achievers get when they achieve.


However, not all the population is achievers, and there does appears to be some sexual dimorphism -- there are still more women who are achiever dominant then other types, but a lower percentage then there is for men.


As I said, there is quite a bit of academic research on this topic in the last few years -- people have been investigating if the Bartle types are real, if there are more then the 4 types, how much crossover is there between the types, and trying to figure out the observer biases caused by limiting the sample of people to those that are comfortable with computers or games.


The original paper is &quot;Players who Suit MUDs&quot; by Richard Bartle, if you search for others papers that refer to that paper you&#039;ll find quite a few interesting ones.


It is disapointing to me that a lot of social science people automatically discount this type of research since it originated in the game industry, but I think its lessons apply to many different disciplines, ranging from industrial design (how to make a car that people care about keeping the MPG high), software engineering (how do keep people interested in the information we are delivering without burning out) to marketing and adversing.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(copied from less active Many-to-Many comments &#8212; the problem with cross-posting <img src='http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>The online game industry knows a lot about this &#8212; they call people with a significant amount of this behavior an &#8220;Achiever&#8221;.</p>
<p>The theory, originated by Richard Bartle 16+ years ago, is that all players of online games fall into four types: Achievers, Explorers, Socializers, and Killers.</p>
<p>There has been a lot of good academic work on this topic in recent years, though like a lot of good ideas has been overly popularlized and thus simplified too much.</p>
<p>How it applies to your thoughts is that a large percentage of the population (some say 50%+) have as their primary motivation to sustain a feeling of achievement. It can be lifting weights, doing the New York Sunday crossword puzzle, and of course, gaining experience and levels in an online game.</p>
<p>Not the entire population has this as their primary motivation, but when you add it to people who have it as a secondary motivation it is such a large population that the online games primarily cater to this Bartle type. In recent years as game designers we&#8217;ve been perfecting the our appeal to this type of player &#8212; knowing how long to wait before giving feedback that an achievement is in progress, how often someone needs a break so they don&#8217;t burn out, etc. A lot of it feels like Pavlovian research.</p>
<p>Thus more recently designed games like Worlds of Warcraft have learned from previous generations of game design to make an almost perfect game for the achiever dominant Bartle type. It isn&#8217;t just marketing or better graphics &#8212; they&#8217;ve really learned how to addict people to the feeling achievers get when they achieve.</p>
<p>However, not all the population is achievers, and there does appears to be some sexual dimorphism &#8212; there are still more women who are achiever dominant then other types, but a lower percentage then there is for men.</p>
<p>As I said, there is quite a bit of academic research on this topic in the last few years &#8212; people have been investigating if the Bartle types are real, if there are more then the 4 types, how much crossover is there between the types, and trying to figure out the observer biases caused by limiting the sample of people to those that are comfortable with computers or games.</p>
<p>The original paper is &#8220;Players who Suit MUDs&#8221; by Richard Bartle, if you search for others papers that refer to that paper you&#8217;ll find quite a few interesting ones.</p>
<p>It is disapointing to me that a lot of social science people automatically discount this type of research since it originated in the game industry, but I think its lessons apply to many different disciplines, ranging from industrial design (how to make a car that people care about keeping the MPG high), software engineering (how do keep people interested in the information we are delivering without burning out) to marketing and adversing.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex H.</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html/comment-page-1#comment-13984</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 10:12:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html#comment-13984</guid>
		<description>their*
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>their*</p>
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		<title>By: Alex H.</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html/comment-page-1#comment-13983</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 10:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html#comment-13983</guid>
		<description>As part of my dissertation, I looked at the learning curve for new commenters. They would start out at 1s and many would gradually get to the point where there average score was actually above 4. That is, they had learned to &quot;game&quot; the social system, and had managed to find a way of getting highly ranked.


But then a funny thing happened. Inevitably, they settled back to an average of 2 or 3, and that remained their average for the remainder of their time on Slashdot. Having learned how to win, they stepped back and started playing the game for fun.


I suspect this may be the case in lots of social software venues, but it may be that the ceiling on Slashdot created the effect, just as folks who beat a particular video game may go back to play it in a more exploratory way. Maybe in venues that are ranked rather than scored that competitiveness never dies off.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As part of my dissertation, I looked at the learning curve for new commenters. They would start out at 1s and many would gradually get to the point where there average score was actually above 4. That is, they had learned to &#8220;game&#8221; the social system, and had managed to find a way of getting highly ranked.</p>
<p>But then a funny thing happened. Inevitably, they settled back to an average of 2 or 3, and that remained their average for the remainder of their time on Slashdot. Having learned how to win, they stepped back and started playing the game for fun.</p>
<p>I suspect this may be the case in lots of social software venues, but it may be that the ceiling on Slashdot created the effect, just as folks who beat a particular video game may go back to play it in a more exploratory way. Maybe in venues that are ranked rather than scored that competitiveness never dies off.</p>
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		<title>By: heathervescent</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html/comment-page-1#comment-13982</link>
		<dc:creator>heathervescent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 09:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html#comment-13982</guid>
		<description>Human beings are always trying to compare/define. Numbers are easy to use to gauge comparison because the hierarchy is built in. Complicated algorithms try add some level of &quot;fairness&quot; based on prioritized criteria, but it&#039;s still a numbers game. It&#039;s much more challenging (and I would say valuable) to work developing your own personal value (i.e. positioning/differentiating) than get stuck in the number hierarchy loop. :)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Human beings are always trying to compare/define. Numbers are easy to use to gauge comparison because the hierarchy is built in. Complicated algorithms try add some level of &#8220;fairness&#8221; based on prioritized criteria, but it&#8217;s still a numbers game. It&#8217;s much more challenging (and I would say valuable) to work developing your own personal value (i.e. positioning/differentiating) than get stuck in the number hierarchy loop. <img src='http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Yumio</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html/comment-page-1#comment-13981</link>
		<dc:creator>Yumio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Aug 2006 21:50:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html#comment-13981</guid>
		<description>Hi there - this is Yumio, from Yahoo! Answers.  I am also amazed at how much the simple &quot;existence&quot; of points motivate behavior on Answers. Then I remembered how on Solitaire, the computer game, turning on the &quot;Vegas option&quot; where you lose/win fictitious money made me play the game 10X more times.  I think there is something innate about us humans which likes being measured by numbers.  Maybe I should put $$ signs on the points.... :)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi there &#8211; this is Yumio, from Yahoo! Answers.  I am also amazed at how much the simple &#8220;existence&#8221; of points motivate behavior on Answers. Then I remembered how on Solitaire, the computer game, turning on the &#8220;Vegas option&#8221; where you lose/win fictitious money made me play the game 10X more times.  I think there is something innate about us humans which likes being measured by numbers.  Maybe I should put $$ signs on the points&#8230;. <img src='http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: schloss</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html/comment-page-1#comment-13980</link>
		<dc:creator>schloss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Aug 2006 18:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html#comment-13980</guid>
		<description>Doug -- &lt;a href=&quot;http://tygar-blog.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://tygar-blog.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://tygar-blog.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/a&gt; -- linked to this nice NYTimes article (bottom) about points and pistachio ice cream.  Even though people like vanilla more than pistachio ice cream, folks often chose pistachio when the point value was higher.  You can bias choices by changing the value of the rewards.  Think about when you were a kid playing skeeball and how badly you wanted to collect 2,000 tickets so you could get that mini TV.  It would have been cheaper to buy it somewhere else than play the hundreds of games of skeeball to collect enough tickets to get the TV, but that doesn&#039;t enter into your mind when the TV was right in front of you.


You can also learn about reward systems from casinos and psychology.  If rewards are regular -- say, a pellet of food if you push a button twice -- then animals and people will perform that regular action to get the reward and move along.  If you randomize the reward like a slot machine, people tend to keep doing that activity even if they&#039;re rewarded -- waiting for the next reward to come along.  There&#039;s reason to use regular rewards to hook a person initially (say, quickly leveling a character when starting an RPG) and random rewards to keep them coming back (say, collecting a set of magic armor that appears piece by piece, randomly).


&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/25/business/26leonextra.html?ex=1155096000&amp;en=e92f7ee913dc9243&amp;ei=5070&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/25/business/26leonextra.html?ex=1155096000&amp;en=e92f7ee913dc9243&amp;ei=5070&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/25/business/26leonextra.html?ex=1155096000&amp;en=e92f7ee913dc9243&amp;ei=5070&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doug &#8212; <a href="http://tygar-blog.com" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/tygar-blog.com?referer=');"></a><a href="http://tygar-blog.com" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/tygar-blog.com?referer=');">http://tygar-blog.com</a> &#8212; linked to this nice NYTimes article (bottom) about points and pistachio ice cream.  Even though people like vanilla more than pistachio ice cream, folks often chose pistachio when the point value was higher.  You can bias choices by changing the value of the rewards.  Think about when you were a kid playing skeeball and how badly you wanted to collect 2,000 tickets so you could get that mini TV.  It would have been cheaper to buy it somewhere else than play the hundreds of games of skeeball to collect enough tickets to get the TV, but that doesn&#8217;t enter into your mind when the TV was right in front of you.</p>
<p>You can also learn about reward systems from casinos and psychology.  If rewards are regular &#8212; say, a pellet of food if you push a button twice &#8212; then animals and people will perform that regular action to get the reward and move along.  If you randomize the reward like a slot machine, people tend to keep doing that activity even if they&#8217;re rewarded &#8212; waiting for the next reward to come along.  There&#8217;s reason to use regular rewards to hook a person initially (say, quickly leveling a character when starting an RPG) and random rewards to keep them coming back (say, collecting a set of magic armor that appears piece by piece, randomly).</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/25/business/26leonextra.html?ex=1155096000&#038;en=e92f7ee913dc9243&#038;ei=5070" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.nytimes.com/2006/04/25/business/26leonextra.html?ex=1155096000_038_en=e92f7ee913dc9243_038_ei=5070&amp;referer=');"></a><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/25/business/26leonextra.html?ex=1155096000&#038;en=e92f7ee913dc9243&#038;ei=5070" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.nytimes.com/2006/04/25/business/26leonextra.html?ex=1155096000_038_en=e92f7ee913dc9243_038_ei=5070&amp;referer=');">http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/25/business/26leonextra.html?ex=1155096000&#038;en=e92f7ee913dc9243&#038;ei=5070</a></p>
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		<title>By: christopher carfi</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html/comment-page-1#comment-13979</link>
		<dc:creator>christopher carfi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/08/07/number_games_an.html#comment-13979</guid>
		<description>heh.  i was about to write &quot;i don&#039;t have the link right in front of me, but i know that AJ Kim has done a ton of work in this area, you might want to check out her slides from supernova.&quot;


nevermind!
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>heh.  i was about to write &#8220;i don&#8217;t have the link right in front of me, but i know that AJ Kim has done a ton of work in this area, you might want to check out her slides from supernova.&#8221;</p>
<p>nevermind!</p>
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