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	<title>Comments on: an ode to a math teacher: benevolent dictators and urban tribes</title>
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	<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html</link>
	<description>making connections where none previously existed</description>
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		<title>By: jim witte</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html/comment-page-1#comment-13921</link>
		<dc:creator>jim witte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Aug 2006 22:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html#comment-13921</guid>
		<description>good thoughts and interesting comments.


I feel the need to ask the sociological questions?  For example.  What does it mean for social relationships that our dominant forms of communication technology &#039;require&#039; us to deliberately articulate (reify) our social networks?  To what extent is the process of articulating social relationships driven by the commercialization of the technology?  How does the F2F variable intervene?  Is F2F essential for a tribe?




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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>good thoughts and interesting comments.</p>
<p>I feel the need to ask the sociological questions?  For example.  What does it mean for social relationships that our dominant forms of communication technology &#8216;require&#8217; us to deliberately articulate (reify) our social networks?  To what extent is the process of articulating social relationships driven by the commercialization of the technology?  How does the F2F variable intervene?  Is F2F essential for a tribe?</p>
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		<title>By: arvind</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html/comment-page-1#comment-13920</link>
		<dc:creator>arvind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jul 2006 12:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html#comment-13920</guid>
		<description>mailing lists and tribe.nets are, are you point out, consensual reifications of network structure. whatever you wish, because of the consensus formation inherent in these groups, there isn&#039;t any canned leadership solution - it&#039;s purely an assumption that leadership is the problem - and so the choice of a benevolent dictatorship or a democracy or what have you will always be hard to predict, and will depend largely on the group in question.


on the other hand, how about if we reify the &#039;imagined&#039; in &#039;imagined communities&#039;? leave it to individual members to specify their own sets of networks, and let information (gossip, party invitations, what have you) flow through it depending upon the members&#039; imaginations?


of course, mailing lists and tribe.nets also assume that a personal network is a relatively stable thing, and so make it hard to form incidental, short term communes..
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mailing lists and tribe.nets are, are you point out, consensual reifications of network structure. whatever you wish, because of the consensus formation inherent in these groups, there isn&#8217;t any canned leadership solution &#8211; it&#8217;s purely an assumption that leadership is the problem &#8211; and so the choice of a benevolent dictatorship or a democracy or what have you will always be hard to predict, and will depend largely on the group in question.</p>
<p>on the other hand, how about if we reify the &#8216;imagined&#8217; in &#8216;imagined communities&#8217;? leave it to individual members to specify their own sets of networks, and let information (gossip, party invitations, what have you) flow through it depending upon the members&#8217; imaginations?</p>
<p>of course, mailing lists and tribe.nets also assume that a personal network is a relatively stable thing, and so make it hard to form incidental, short term communes..</p>
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		<title>By: morganya</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html/comment-page-1#comment-13919</link>
		<dc:creator>morganya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jul 2006 10:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html#comment-13919</guid>
		<description>What was the &quot;tribe&quot; before it was called the tribe? I&#039;m pretty sure this isn&#039;t such a new thing; the need for community is as old as humankind. Ad-hoc friends groups are certainly prevalent in teenage circles. Is it just that we&#039;re staying in that so-called &quot;liminal&quot; state longer? Is it that instead of more organized groups, we have ad-hoc groups?


Thanks for telling about your tribe. Just as a point of comparison (and word of caution in response to a few of the overly-generalizing comments), my &quot;tribe&quot; (whose tenth anniversary party is next month!) has never had leadership struggles, though there are certainly a few people that a few other people actively dislike. The mailing list for my tribe is completely open, but control is exerted on the social level (rather than the legal or technological levels, to divide the field like Lessig does). Interestingly, while the core membership -- aside from a few stable people -- has cycled through several times as people finish grad school or otherwise move on or away, the tribe still has a characteristic feel, and the type of people attracted to it stay relatively constant, even down to the few quirky medieval literature grad student regulars and the a capella singers. Oh, and &quot;coupling,&quot; and even children, haven&#039;t screwed up my tribe at all. Those surface attributes of tribes can change easily; these groups are still fulfilling the same sorts of underlying human needs even when they seem to take different forms.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What was the &#8220;tribe&#8221; before it was called the tribe? I&#8217;m pretty sure this isn&#8217;t such a new thing; the need for community is as old as humankind. Ad-hoc friends groups are certainly prevalent in teenage circles. Is it just that we&#8217;re staying in that so-called &#8220;liminal&#8221; state longer? Is it that instead of more organized groups, we have ad-hoc groups?</p>
<p>Thanks for telling about your tribe. Just as a point of comparison (and word of caution in response to a few of the overly-generalizing comments), my &#8220;tribe&#8221; (whose tenth anniversary party is next month!) has never had leadership struggles, though there are certainly a few people that a few other people actively dislike. The mailing list for my tribe is completely open, but control is exerted on the social level (rather than the legal or technological levels, to divide the field like Lessig does). Interestingly, while the core membership &#8212; aside from a few stable people &#8212; has cycled through several times as people finish grad school or otherwise move on or away, the tribe still has a characteristic feel, and the type of people attracted to it stay relatively constant, even down to the few quirky medieval literature grad student regulars and the a capella singers. Oh, and &#8220;coupling,&#8221; and even children, haven&#8217;t screwed up my tribe at all. Those surface attributes of tribes can change easily; these groups are still fulfilling the same sorts of underlying human needs even when they seem to take different forms.</p>
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		<title>By: Mickbic</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html/comment-page-1#comment-13918</link>
		<dc:creator>Mickbic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:08:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html#comment-13918</guid>
		<description>coupling does not have to kill tribe, but often there may be a sense of betrayal if both members of the couple do not also have some sense of on- going committment to tribe, whatever tribe may be.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>coupling does not have to kill tribe, but often there may be a sense of betrayal if both members of the couple do not also have some sense of on- going committment to tribe, whatever tribe may be.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html/comment-page-1#comment-13917</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Jul 2006 18:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html#comment-13917</guid>
		<description>It would be interesting to have communication tools whose design acknowledged this issue.  Imagine a mailing list anyone could join, but any time someone started a new thread, it would only be visible/sent to the people the thread-starter thought should be on the list.


In some ways that&#039;s like not having a list at all, but if you add some more features, the central management becomes useful: view &amp; browse the membership graph, show people&#039;s memberness rank (as determined by some graph flood-fill or PageRank sort of thing), and allow people to send a message not only to their own list, but to the N-step transitive closure list (to include friends of friends, etc).




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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be interesting to have communication tools whose design acknowledged this issue.  Imagine a mailing list anyone could join, but any time someone started a new thread, it would only be visible/sent to the people the thread-starter thought should be on the list.</p>
<p>In some ways that&#8217;s like not having a list at all, but if you add some more features, the central management becomes useful: view &#038; browse the membership graph, show people&#8217;s memberness rank (as determined by some graph flood-fill or PageRank sort of thing), and allow people to send a message not only to their own list, but to the N-step transitive closure list (to include friends of friends, etc).</p>
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		<title>By: Bertil</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html/comment-page-1#comment-13916</link>
		<dc:creator>Bertil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 05:52:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html#comment-13916</guid>
		<description>Not sure the &quot;top eight&quot; is a necesasary feature: I don&#039;t see it on the other social services I use, and  I am happy with it. The ability to comment is a great tool however, and a better indication of closeness: someone who tells private jokes probably knows the person better than someone who use a template message to which a happy Valentine to a bachelor.


Another clumsy moment with another social software is when to declare how you know your friends (family, school, work, travel. . .): same problem, combined with the fact that you are not willing to mingle your (bizare) workmates with you (dysfunctional) family.


I very much like you comment on what makes a community, don&#039;t think you need to introduce an fixed frontier to it because there are none: it&#039;s a holistic tool (and holism is morally bad ;^). I&#039;d even say a technology with a &quot;required articulation&quot; is the wrong one if it feels clumsy to you. E-mail or IM do not require a declaration of friendship, so I beleive in a social software that reckon them.


In a word, I am not sure one should go beyond the Google &quot;Contact&quot; interface that is used for Mail, Talk and Calendar.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure the &#8220;top eight&#8221; is a necesasary feature: I don&#8217;t see it on the other social services I use, and  I am happy with it. The ability to comment is a great tool however, and a better indication of closeness: someone who tells private jokes probably knows the person better than someone who use a template message to which a happy Valentine to a bachelor.</p>
<p>Another clumsy moment with another social software is when to declare how you know your friends (family, school, work, travel. . .): same problem, combined with the fact that you are not willing to mingle your (bizare) workmates with you (dysfunctional) family.</p>
<p>I very much like you comment on what makes a community, don&#8217;t think you need to introduce an fixed frontier to it because there are none: it&#8217;s a holistic tool (and holism is morally bad ;^). I&#8217;d even say a technology with a &#8220;required articulation&#8221; is the wrong one if it feels clumsy to you. E-mail or IM do not require a declaration of friendship, so I beleive in a social software that reckon them.</p>
<p>In a word, I am not sure one should go beyond the Google &#8220;Contact&#8221; interface that is used for Mail, Talk and Calendar.</p>
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		<title>By: storygeek</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html/comment-page-1#comment-13915</link>
		<dc:creator>storygeek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jul 2006 04:57:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html#comment-13915</guid>
		<description>This post is definitely relevant to situation I am in.


A little explanation - I am a masters student in a masters program at Ball State university in Muncie, Indiana. &quot;Where?&quot;, you might ask. Muncie is a small city in north-eastern Indiana. There are about 18 people in the program now and with partners and friends our group mails have about 25 people on them. We manage this just with the university email and hitting &quot;reply all&quot;. This of course leads to problems. People being left off or asking to be removed because of traffic on heavy discussions and then not being dropped. I think if I imposed any structure, they would balk at it. We have formed a large cohesive social group that we like. The most pressing issue is we have 18-20 new students coming in this fall and I just don&#039;t think we can have up to 40 on a &quot;reply to all&quot; situation. I would love to have the time to watch what happens but danah&#039;s post definitely has me thinking about it.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post is definitely relevant to situation I am in.</p>
<p>A little explanation &#8211; I am a masters student in a masters program at Ball State university in Muncie, Indiana. &#8220;Where?&#8221;, you might ask. Muncie is a small city in north-eastern Indiana. There are about 18 people in the program now and with partners and friends our group mails have about 25 people on them. We manage this just with the university email and hitting &#8220;reply all&#8221;. This of course leads to problems. People being left off or asking to be removed because of traffic on heavy discussions and then not being dropped. I think if I imposed any structure, they would balk at it. We have formed a large cohesive social group that we like. The most pressing issue is we have 18-20 new students coming in this fall and I just don&#8217;t think we can have up to 40 on a &#8220;reply to all&#8221; situation. I would love to have the time to watch what happens but danah&#8217;s post definitely has me thinking about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Liz Henry</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html/comment-page-1#comment-13914</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 19:25:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html#comment-13914</guid>
		<description>Coupling screws everything up. We should have individual, flexible space instead and easy co-housing structuring. Architecture built for tribes, not for temporary nuclear families.  The social structures are hard to build and maintain without the architecture and legal structures to support them.  I know, I just invented the urban kibbutz for the millionth time, but someone&#039;s got to say it.










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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Coupling screws everything up. We should have individual, flexible space instead and easy co-housing structuring. Architecture built for tribes, not for temporary nuclear families.  The social structures are hard to build and maintain without the architecture and legal structures to support them.  I know, I just invented the urban kibbutz for the millionth time, but someone&#8217;s got to say it.</p>
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		<title>By: misuba</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html/comment-page-1#comment-13913</link>
		<dc:creator>misuba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 18:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html#comment-13913</guid>
		<description>Have you seen the &lt;a href=&quot;http://sean.chittenden.org/humor/www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Five Geek Social Fallacies&lt;/a&gt;?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you seen the <a href="http://sean.chittenden.org/humor/www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/sean.chittenden.org/humor/www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html?referer=');">Five Geek Social Fallacies</a>?</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Forster</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html/comment-page-1#comment-13912</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Forster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 15:21:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/07/24/an_ode_to_a_mat.html#comment-13912</guid>
		<description>Dunbar&#039;s number says that your group can have a maximum size of 150 before needing formal political structure, see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/recreation/index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/recreation/index.html&lt;/a&gt;
for an interesting analysis of virtual groupings
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dunbar&#8217;s number says that your group can have a maximum size of 150 before needing formal political structure, see <a href="http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/recreation/index.html" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.lifewithalacrity.com/recreation/index.html?referer=');">http://www.lifewithalacrity.com/recreation/index.html</a><br />
for an interesting analysis of virtual groupings</p>
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