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	<title>Comments on: perpetually liminal: are we refusing to grow up? what does this mean?</title>
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		<title>By: ada</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/01/24/perpetually_lim.html/comment-page-1#comment-12504</link>
		<dc:creator>ada</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Mar 2007 07:42:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>hey how is everyone???/
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hey how is everyone???/</p>
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		<title>By: myshele</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/01/24/perpetually_lim.html/comment-page-1#comment-12503</link>
		<dc:creator>myshele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Apr 2006 13:08:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Excellent essay.  I like the part about success being increasingly confined to those who have rich parents and those who &#039;get lucky.&#039;  That great American work ethic seems to be fading fast as our choices are eaten up by corporate capitalism (pure capitalism would be an improvement!).  Keeping people in a constant state of fear for their jobs keeps them complacent, making young people cling to the scraps they&#039;re thrown and older people cling to the illusion of security.


As for the Darwinism mentioned by one commenter, perhaps a refresher of high-school biology is in order.  Darwin coined the phrase &quot;survival of the fit&quot; -- if it works, it lives.  It doesn&#039;t have to be the best or the brightest, just has to survive long enough to pass on its genes, and that leaves a pretty wide field for adaptation and resilience in the face of change.  The idea of &quot;survival of the fittest&quot; was coined later by a social theorist to describe early capitalism, but if you think for a moment, any ecosystem -- or any society -- in which this principle operated would soon die out (soon in relative terms, here).  If &quot;the fittest&quot; for a particular situation dominated, what would happen when that situation changed? Rather than a singular vision of &quot;the fittest,&quot; which offers us a dead end, we need a wide diversity of &quot;fit&quot; options that all different kinds of people can pursue.  Monoculture, whether we&#039;re talking food or economics, is a death sentence.


Maybe that&#039;s one reason why we liminal young people are struggling so hard against growing up.  Being an adult has become en exercise in monoculture, and on some instinctive level we see that there&#039;s more to life than being a cubicle slave....


(--working-class debt-laden temporary cubicle slave, waiting to hear about PhD funding)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent essay.  I like the part about success being increasingly confined to those who have rich parents and those who &#8216;get lucky.&#8217;  That great American work ethic seems to be fading fast as our choices are eaten up by corporate capitalism (pure capitalism would be an improvement!).  Keeping people in a constant state of fear for their jobs keeps them complacent, making young people cling to the scraps they&#8217;re thrown and older people cling to the illusion of security.</p>
<p>As for the Darwinism mentioned by one commenter, perhaps a refresher of high-school biology is in order.  Darwin coined the phrase &#8220;survival of the fit&#8221; &#8212; if it works, it lives.  It doesn&#8217;t have to be the best or the brightest, just has to survive long enough to pass on its genes, and that leaves a pretty wide field for adaptation and resilience in the face of change.  The idea of &#8220;survival of the fittest&#8221; was coined later by a social theorist to describe early capitalism, but if you think for a moment, any ecosystem &#8212; or any society &#8212; in which this principle operated would soon die out (soon in relative terms, here).  If &#8220;the fittest&#8221; for a particular situation dominated, what would happen when that situation changed? Rather than a singular vision of &#8220;the fittest,&#8221; which offers us a dead end, we need a wide diversity of &#8220;fit&#8221; options that all different kinds of people can pursue.  Monoculture, whether we&#8217;re talking food or economics, is a death sentence.</p>
<p>Maybe that&#8217;s one reason why we liminal young people are struggling so hard against growing up.  Being an adult has become en exercise in monoculture, and on some instinctive level we see that there&#8217;s more to life than being a cubicle slave&#8230;.</p>
<p>(&#8211;working-class debt-laden temporary cubicle slave, waiting to hear about PhD funding)</p>
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		<title>By: Odysseus</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/01/24/perpetually_lim.html/comment-page-1#comment-12502</link>
		<dc:creator>Odysseus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Apr 2006 12:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/01/24/perpetually_lim.html#comment-12502</guid>
		<description>One wonders whether our current tracks even lead to success for knowledge workers or whether we&#039;re wasting their time, too.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One wonders whether our current tracks even lead to success for knowledge workers or whether we&#8217;re wasting their time, too.</p>
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		<title>By: BlogHer [beta]</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/01/24/perpetually_lim.html/comment-page-1#comment-12505</link>
		<dc:creator>BlogHer [beta]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 09:00:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/01/24/perpetually_lim.html#comment-12505</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Sustainable Career Planning Is No Longer Required Reading&lt;/strong&gt;

Whatchu talkin&#039; about, Willis?We see Gary Coleman&#039;s scrunched-up little face saying that now-famous line and we think, how adorable! And then we see him on some Cash Call commercial at 1am on the UPN Network bellowing, &quot;I needed some cash, BAD!&quot; and we t</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Sustainable Career Planning Is No Longer Required Reading</strong></p>
<p>Whatchu talkin&#8217; about, Willis?We see Gary Coleman&#8217;s scrunched-up little face saying that now-famous line and we think, how adorable! And then we see him on some Cash Call commercial at 1am on the UPN Network bellowing, &#8220;I needed some cash, BAD!&#8221; and we t</p>
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		<title>By: Caryn Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/01/24/perpetually_lim.html/comment-page-1#comment-12501</link>
		<dc:creator>Caryn Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jan 2006 06:45:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/01/24/perpetually_lim.html#comment-12501</guid>
		<description>Greetings,


If you, or others, are interested in pursuing the issue of educating/supporting &quot;non-college-bound&quot; or &quot;working class&quot; youth, I recommend the book &quot;Rethinking America&quot; by Hedrick Smith. It is 10 years old now, but the principles and examples remain relevant today.


He compares America, Germany and Japan and the way major corporations are integrated (or not) with secondary education institutions to provide training and opportunities for non-college students to develop useful career tracks.


He talks about America as a &quot;hero&quot; culture, where  superlative personalities or achievements are celebrated in spite of the fact that few people will ever achieve these levels. Thus, programs to send &quot;every student to college&quot; are funded and promoted although this is not appropriate (or even desired) for all Americans. And few high school guidance counselors are trained or prepared to guide students to any option but college.


In a related issue, I remain distressed that there are all kinds of grants, scholarships and financial aid for higher education (government and otherwise), while there is virtually no support for early childhood education.


A student attending a state college can often attend for as little as a few thousand, while early childhood education (child care by trained educators) can cost upwards of $15,000 per year. This is the most formative time of a human being&#039;s intellectual and social development (over 90% of the synapses in the brain are formed in the first 3 years) and determines much about how an individual learns and interacts with others for the remainder of their life. ...ah, but this is a topic for another day.


Caryn






</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greetings,</p>
<p>If you, or others, are interested in pursuing the issue of educating/supporting &#8220;non-college-bound&#8221; or &#8220;working class&#8221; youth, I recommend the book &#8220;Rethinking America&#8221; by Hedrick Smith. It is 10 years old now, but the principles and examples remain relevant today.</p>
<p>He compares America, Germany and Japan and the way major corporations are integrated (or not) with secondary education institutions to provide training and opportunities for non-college students to develop useful career tracks.</p>
<p>He talks about America as a &#8220;hero&#8221; culture, where  superlative personalities or achievements are celebrated in spite of the fact that few people will ever achieve these levels. Thus, programs to send &#8220;every student to college&#8221; are funded and promoted although this is not appropriate (or even desired) for all Americans. And few high school guidance counselors are trained or prepared to guide students to any option but college.</p>
<p>In a related issue, I remain distressed that there are all kinds of grants, scholarships and financial aid for higher education (government and otherwise), while there is virtually no support for early childhood education.</p>
<p>A student attending a state college can often attend for as little as a few thousand, while early childhood education (child care by trained educators) can cost upwards of $15,000 per year. This is the most formative time of a human being&#8217;s intellectual and social development (over 90% of the synapses in the brain are formed in the first 3 years) and determines much about how an individual learns and interacts with others for the remainder of their life. &#8230;ah, but this is a topic for another day.</p>
<p>Caryn</p>
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		<title>By: benjamin shine</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/01/24/perpetually_lim.html/comment-page-1#comment-12500</link>
		<dc:creator>benjamin shine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2006 10:26:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/01/24/perpetually_lim.html#comment-12500</guid>
		<description>Part of the problem may be that college is no longer necessary for learning knowledge-worker job skills; many of the most successful people in technology didn&#039;t attend traditional college at all, didn&#039;t graduate, or didn&#039;t study anything related to the fields in which they are now knowledge workers. Summer interns at tech companies can often do just as much as recent college grads with degrees in computer science; my world is about the practice of software engineering, not the construction of algorithms or VLSI&#039;s.
Knowledge-work is learned by doing. I just might go and learn Scheme this weekend because it might be helpful for my job to think of data/code fluidity in that particular way; this will be a very different experience than learning Scheme as a freshman in order to do the coursework.
College requires more maturity and personal drive than working for a decent manager in the industry. No way is a professor going to ask you for weekly updates on your month-long homework assignment, or work with you to load-balance between various tasks. I think young techies would do well to learn-by-doing just as much as they need to get their first job, then work until they know what they want to learn about, and why... and only then go to college.
I&#039;m ideologically interested in programs like Teach For America and City Year which deploy young people into useful service roles straight out of high school. I think higher education is for adults, and the way to become an adult is to _be_ an adult.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part of the problem may be that college is no longer necessary for learning knowledge-worker job skills; many of the most successful people in technology didn&#8217;t attend traditional college at all, didn&#8217;t graduate, or didn&#8217;t study anything related to the fields in which they are now knowledge workers. Summer interns at tech companies can often do just as much as recent college grads with degrees in computer science; my world is about the practice of software engineering, not the construction of algorithms or VLSI&#8217;s.<br />
Knowledge-work is learned by doing. I just might go and learn Scheme this weekend because it might be helpful for my job to think of data/code fluidity in that particular way; this will be a very different experience than learning Scheme as a freshman in order to do the coursework.<br />
College requires more maturity and personal drive than working for a decent manager in the industry. No way is a professor going to ask you for weekly updates on your month-long homework assignment, or work with you to load-balance between various tasks. I think young techies would do well to learn-by-doing just as much as they need to get their first job, then work until they know what they want to learn about, and why&#8230; and only then go to college.<br />
I&#8217;m ideologically interested in programs like Teach For America and City Year which deploy young people into useful service roles straight out of high school. I think higher education is for adults, and the way to become an adult is to _be_ an adult.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Parker</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/01/24/perpetually_lim.html/comment-page-1#comment-12499</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Parker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2006 07:22:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/01/24/perpetually_lim.html#comment-12499</guid>
		<description>I think college is a great thing, and it seems to me that over the next 50 years America&#039;s college graduates will create a pool of smarter, more informed, more savvy human beings.  The US will increasingly become a knowledge &amp; service economy, while people around the world (with an elementary school education) make its goods.


Is that good?  Hell no.  But it&#039;s darwinism and it works.


There will always be the kids that drop out when they get their first paycheck from McDonald&#039;s and can buy rims, but no one should be encouraged to do that.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think college is a great thing, and it seems to me that over the next 50 years America&#8217;s college graduates will create a pool of smarter, more informed, more savvy human beings.  The US will increasingly become a knowledge &#038; service economy, while people around the world (with an elementary school education) make its goods.</p>
<p>Is that good?  Hell no.  But it&#8217;s darwinism and it works.</p>
<p>There will always be the kids that drop out when they get their first paycheck from McDonald&#8217;s and can buy rims, but no one should be encouraged to do that.</p>
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		<title>By: paul</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/01/24/perpetually_lim.html/comment-page-1#comment-12498</link>
		<dc:creator>paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2006 07:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/01/24/perpetually_lim.html#comment-12498</guid>
		<description>It comes down to choices, I live a young mans life well into middle age because I can. My Grandparents had to go to work at 9, my father went off to war at 17.
I keep fit and healthy appreciating life as a gift and I&#039;m celebrating with every breath.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It comes down to choices, I live a young mans life well into middle age because I can. My Grandparents had to go to work at 9, my father went off to war at 17.<br />
I keep fit and healthy appreciating life as a gift and I&#8217;m celebrating with every breath.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Lewis</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/01/24/perpetually_lim.html/comment-page-1#comment-12497</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Lewis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:40:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/01/24/perpetually_lim.html#comment-12497</guid>
		<description>In my view, today&#039;s liminal period IS the college experience.  It has all the traditional characteristics. It&#039;s the first time (usually) an individual goes away to a foreign place, is relieved of responsibility, and goes through various rites of passage.


While there are still &quot;growing up&quot; experiences after college, i do believe that our society does see a college graduate as an &quot;adult.&quot;  Many people, myself included, have spent many nights pondering what&#039;s goign on with the world and the roles we play. But i don&#039;t think that this makes us any less &quot;adult&quot; i just think this means we&#039;re constantly moving on a journey, and constantly growing.


Kundera says &quot;At the beginnings of one&#039;s erotic life, there is arousal without climax, and at the end there is climax without arousal.&quot;


What sucks is that we are all getting older and i personally am going to try to hang on to arousal as long as possible.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my view, today&#8217;s liminal period IS the college experience.  It has all the traditional characteristics. It&#8217;s the first time (usually) an individual goes away to a foreign place, is relieved of responsibility, and goes through various rites of passage.</p>
<p>While there are still &#8220;growing up&#8221; experiences after college, i do believe that our society does see a college graduate as an &#8220;adult.&#8221;  Many people, myself included, have spent many nights pondering what&#8217;s goign on with the world and the roles we play. But i don&#8217;t think that this makes us any less &#8220;adult&#8221; i just think this means we&#8217;re constantly moving on a journey, and constantly growing.</p>
<p>Kundera says &#8220;At the beginnings of one&#8217;s erotic life, there is arousal without climax, and at the end there is climax without arousal.&#8221;</p>
<p>What sucks is that we are all getting older and i personally am going to try to hang on to arousal as long as possible.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2006/01/24/perpetually_lim.html/comment-page-1#comment-12496</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:38:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ubuntu.my/wp30/archives/2006/01/24/perpetually_lim.html#comment-12496</guid>
		<description>Fascinating observations.  I agree with the lack of defining success for the young adult.  I recently graduated with a Computer Information Systems B.S. degree (double meaning there).  My student loan debt is equal to two years income at the job the degree landed me.  Assuming my difference between income and trimmed to death expenses remains the same, it will not be paid off until my unborn child is in college.  Is that success?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating observations.  I agree with the lack of defining success for the young adult.  I recently graduated with a Computer Information Systems B.S. degree (double meaning there).  My student loan debt is equal to two years income at the job the degree landed me.  Assuming my difference between income and trimmed to death expenses remains the same, it will not be paid off until my unborn child is in college.  Is that success?</p>
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